I am on vacation, and I haven't been keeping up with the newsfeed. If this were posted there, I apologise in advance.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...V2.DTL#ixzz1EbYKZKxp

That's a compelling article. So many arguments can be pulled from it. However quaint and mysterious the forces are behind the greatness of the VPO, they certainly could never justify the rejection of a qualified candidate based on their race.
The Amish haven't used electric appliances or cars for a long, long time. Does it make them seem daffy? Or, does it show committment to their religious beliefs? As we can probably agree, the VPO is almost a mini-religious organization.

...whose exclusions seem as unorthadox as the Amish peoples'.

*sigh*

They seem to think that their artistic identity hinges on things that don't actually matter.

Have the artistic standards of the great orchestras of Berlin, Amsterdam, Chicago et al. declined since they started hiring women or foreigners?

If (if) one believes that the "personalities" of the world's great orchestras have become less distinct, would that be because of hiring women & foreigners, or because of a hiring process that prizes accuracy rather than individuality?

To understand Austrians in this case one needs much more sense of cultural identity and tradition than an average American critic can possibly have. It's not baseball...

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:
To understand Austrians in this case one needs much more sense of cultural identity and tradition than an average American critic can possibly have. It's not baseball...

For the record, American baseball doesn't have any girls ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:
For the record, American baseball doesn't have any girls ...

How awful!

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:
To understand Austrians in this case one needs much more sense of cultural identity and tradition than an average American critic can possibly have. It's not baseball...

Clever. But in my experience (and I say this as an American who loves and cherishes every trip to Vienna,) the Austrian mentality in the case of the Vienna Phil seems to be almost exactly the same as the mentality that causes Americans so many problems in the world: it's the unquestioned acceptance of American or Austrian exceptionalism, the instinctive sense that what you are doing must not be wrong because you are the ones doing it, and you are a good and righteous people. The Phil has always been a boys' club, and yet, it is one of the world's cultural treasures, and therefore it must be right to continue to (mostly) exclude women, even if the rest of the world can't understand it. America does not torture prisoners of war, because we are the beacon of democratic light to the world, and therefore whatever it is we are doing to our prisoners cannot be torture.

(To be clear: I'm not for a moment equating the one with the other. The Musikverein is not Guantanamo Bay. But I do think it's the same sense of national self-importance that leads us down these respective paths of flawed thinking.)

A member of my orchestra has a favorite saying that would seem to apply here: "Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean that it's not incredibly stupid."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sam Bergman,

Tradition is...well, a tradition, like it or not. Vienna Phil is a club and unhappy are those that can't get in.

Let's discuss it - why exactly we do think that Viennese tradition must be changed? What is the goal here - make the orchestra better and, therefore, performances better, or is it to make life of the so called minorities better?



I was once a founding member of one successful chamber orchestra. We were all passionate musical comrades, and we were all men, incidentally. I think it made the group more homogeneous and allowed for less distractions.
We worked 5 hours a day, every day, for almost a year before our first official concert...
Would that have been possible with diverse group of musicians? Maybe...

I would love to see all black or all women symphony orchestra (I think we are almost there), it would surely be distinct and unique in culture, tradition, interpretation, musicianship, and all other aspects that might make them a true gem. I would not be offended if such an orchestra would refuse to hire me because of my lack of understanding of African musical tradition.

All boys and all girls schools were once a tradition too, nobody thinks it stupid today. Today's sports teams are also formed along similar lines ("G.O.L.F." anyone?) Or try criticizing New York or Boston Gay Men's Choir for their "exclusionary" hiring practices.

Vienna just happens to continue with their LONG STANDING orchestral tradition, that, among other things, is what makes them unique. No other orchestra can boast of similar heritage (sorry SFS...)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ClefChef,

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:


Let's discuss it - why exactly we do think that Viennese tradition must be changed?

If ya can't figure it out for yourself, I doubt anyone is going to be able to help ya. Sam's post was great and spot on, if you don't want to acknowledge it then so be it.

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Originally posted by Cygnus:

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:


Let's discuss it - why exactly we do think that Viennese tradition must be changed?

If ya can't figure it out for yourself, I doubt anyone is going to be able to help ya. Sam's post was great and spot on, if you don't want to acknowledge it then so be it.

Yep, that's what I thought, no discussion - make it personal and forget about the topic, "y'all"...

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:
Let's discuss it - why exactly we do think that Viennese tradition must be changed?

Because it is unethical, discriminatory, and backward. There is no moral ambiguity here. Justifying blatant gender discrimination in hiring practices by bleating about tradition is a repugnant act.

There are many gray areas in the world. The Vienna Philharmonic does not reside in one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:

Yep, that's what I thought, no discussion.

Well, if that's what you thought, then why the hell are you asking? As I said, Sam has summed up the situation beautifully. If the "discussion" you want is some Bullsh*t fight about elitism and snobishness, you've probably come to the wrong place. Try Facebook/Fascistbook or something.

quote:

"y'all"...

Y'all come back now...ya hear?

Whoa, if your idea of discussion is asserting just one side of view then I'm truly sorry I posted, sign out...

There are really two parts to this question - the first is gender, the second is cultural background.

The exclusion for gender is slowly dying, and will continue to die. It's only a matter of time. While it's true that the inclusion of both sexes in the workplace can alter the personal dynamics and lead to some problems that weren't there in the old days, there were different problems when it was the exclusive province of one sex. Surely we can all adjust to this and be better for it, including the Vienna Philharmonic.

Perhaps the cultural argument has more merit. The artist doesn't operate in a vacuum, but is a mouthpiece for the entire culture, steeped in the tradition since childhood and absorbing many things subconsciously. An example could be African art - no matter how much an outsider studies and practices, he will never be able to convincingly reproduce a genuine African mask that would fool experts, because art is not just an intellectual process but the individual expression of an entire culture that is impossible to produce unless you have been a part of it since birth.

It seems to me that this is what the Vienna Philharmonic is saying. They believe in their traditions, and also believe that outsiders can never have quite the same "feel" for their home grown repertoire that they do. And perhaps they are right.

quote:

Originally posted by Feuermann:
An example could be African art - no matter how much an outsider studies and practices, he will never be able to convincingly reproduce a genuine African mask that would fool experts, because art is not just an intellectual process but the individual expression of an entire culture that is impossible to produce unless you have been a part of it since birth.

I don't buy this for a second. The best spanish orchestral music was written by those great spanish composers Rimsky-Korsakov, Ravel and Chabrier. John Williams (AFAIK not Jewish) nailed it in Schindler's List.

If there were any truth to this, than the VPO couldnt play Copland or Tchaikovsky, while the LA Phil couldnt play Bruckner.

I would like to see a blind audition of any sorts where the panel had to identify where the player was from. It would make for hilarious hijinks.

But what Feuermann is saying (I think) is that no matter how you feel, it is their belief that this is how it should sound and be played regardless of whether or not you or others agree. A lot of European orchestras are quite nationalistic so Vienna isn't the only example.

A blind audition might (or might not) prove that you don't have to be Austrian to sound that certain way but I don't think that's going to change how they feel.

Furthermore, who's to say that your opinion of who wrote "the best spanish music" is shared by others or that John Williams "nailed it" in Schindler's List? It's only an opinion which may be shared by some but not by others.

And just an interesting tidbit since you mentioned VP playing Copland; I was surprised to find out that Copland is very seldom if ever played in some areas across the pond. It's almost like they haven't heard of him.

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Originally posted by Tigger:

And just an interesting tidbit since you mentioned VP playing Copland; I was surprised to find out that Copland is very seldom if ever played in some areas across the pond. It's almost like they haven't heard of him.

Yes, I've played Copland in Europe many times including Vienna, he's a novelty for sure. Doesn't really detract from the statement that they can play him and Tchaikovsky and the Latvian national Anthem very well.

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Furthermore, who's to say that your opinion of who wrote "the best spanish music" is shared by others or that John Williams "nailed it" in Schindler's List? It's only an opinion which may be shared by some but not by others.

I named universally beloved pieces. One can love em or hate em, doesn't matter. You can use any examples you want.

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A blind audition might (or might not) prove that you don't have to be Austrian to sound that certain way but I don't think that's going to change how they feel.

Right. However, it would be extremely telling. It's like being very adamant that Coke rules, it's the best and that's that. You take a blind test, you choose Pepsi! Maybe your allegiance might not be swayed, but it would be interesting to have that knowledge nonetheless. It would also extend to life beyond the VPO.

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I would love to see all black or all women symphony orchestra (I think we are almost there), it would surely be distinct and unique in culture, tradition, interpretation, musicianship, and all other aspects that might make them a true gem.

Last year there was an awards program here in Mexico that assembled an all women's symphony orchestra led by Alondra de la Parra. I didn't hear them play, but many of my colleagues were invited to play in it and raved about the experience.

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I've played Copland in Europe many times including Vienna, he's a novelty for sure. Doesn't really detract from the statement that they can play him and Tchaikovsky and the Latvian national Anthem very well.

They may play that music very well, but it will never be quite like the genuine article. The best Tchaikovsky I've ever played was under a Russian conductor, the best Bruckner under a German, the best Verdi under an Italian. When you have a supremely talented individual who was not raised in the culture, it can produce someone like Seiji Ozawa, who has all the right moves but whose music making is ultimately a clever, shallow imitation of the real thing (IMHO).