Hi Everyone:

How old is too old to audition for a major orchestra? I've been playing for 20 years, but didn't have the courage to go to a conservatory after high school. I'm about to enter law school and I'm 25 years old. By the time I finish my studies (and payed some loans down) I'll be pushing 30.

Would a violinist, regardless of ability, have any chance at all of starting a music career that late in life? I'm not talking about a major recording artist or anything -- just a sectional violinst in a major symphony.

What' ya think?

To someone who never played an instrument and finds out age 25 that he wants to be a musician, I would say "get down on the earth".

To someone who was always dedicated to music, but who didn't want to make it his living, even though he practised almost daily and was a sought-after player in semi-pro orchestras, having heard different professional musicians say "You'd probably make it as a musician if you wanted to", I would say "Go for it".

But most people are somewhere in between....

Depends on the instrument also : I know bassoonists who are today excellent pro orchestra musicians who decided "late" that they wanted to study music (we are talking 22-23 years of age here). But I don't know any violinist in that same situation.

Go for it. What have you got to loose? Just make sure you are up to professional standards. Sometimes you have to take risks in life in order to make your dreams a reality.

If I were you, I'd take a lesson with a member of a major orchestra, if possible. Play some excerpts, some solo rep., and ask for an honest opinion, and, like a doctor, try to get more than one assessment. Also, consider taking some orchestral audition prep. courses such as those that are offered at various summer festivals. After that, only you can decide. Good luck!

OLD?!!!! I'm 27, already have been thru college, got a degree....not in music, & now I find myself BACK at school majoring in Music--Performance nonetheless!

OLD? You are 25! Go for it! If you are dedicated, if it is your true passion, the deepest desire, when you know nothing else is better than playing music & performing it for others.....then do it!

OLD? Set a new standard of excellence. Think about the life experience that you have and transfer that over to your violin playing. If your heart is burning for this, then you better do it. Otherwise you will never be happy and could only live in regret simply because you thought you were too....OLD!

First off, 30 is not too old by any stretch. The real question is how much you will have lost by not spending the previous 12 or so years seriously training for this. You need to seek out some professional musicians, play for them, and get their honest, unvarnished opinion on the matter. This is harder than it sounds, since very few musicians enjoy telling someone that it's time to give up their dream, so make it very clear from the outset that you have no interest in pursuing this if you haven't got a realistic chance.

You talk about auditioning for a "major" orchestra, and given the situation you described, that sounds like a long shot to me. Of course, every situation is different, and I should tell you that a member of my orchestra's violin section got her law degree before pursuing music professionally. However, she also attended Juilliard at the same time she was studying her J.D. at Columbia, which sounds different than what you're talking about.

If your question is, will you be able to win a major position after 12 years of playing only as a hobby, the answer is almost certainly not, and even a smaller regional orchestra would be a long shot. But if you've really worked at keeping up your skills since high school, it's time to seek out a top-notch teacher and get a professional appraisal of where you are. Best of luck...

Sam Bergman
violist, Minnesota Orchestra
news editor, ArtsJournal.com
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

With all of this said, how much would an audition pannel care that I never studied at a music school? If I played quite well would they care about my slim resume? Would it be worth my time to go to music school if I wanted this to be my life?

Your slim resume would not be a concern if you played well enough to win the audition. We barely glance at resumes. But what attending a music school will bring you beyond private instruction at a higher level than you'll find elsewhere is a chance to learn a lot of the orchestral repertoire in the school orchestra. This is very important - we can often hear the difference between a player who has played the piece before and one who just knows the excerpt. In other words, yes, music school is most definitely worth your time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sam Bergman:
If your question is, will you be able to win a major position after 12 years of playing only as a hobby, the answer is almost certainly not, and even a smaller regional orchestra would be a long shot. But if you've really worked at keeping up your skills since high school, it's time to seek out a top-notch teacher and get a professional appraisal of where you are. Best of luck..."

Sam, I really enjoy your views and always enjoy reading your posts...right here, though, with all due respect, I'd like to offer a counter to your view. I think that it really depends on who this person is and what sort of talent they might be. Keegan might be a real natural and even without lots of formal training and dedicated practice still play well, strongly, or even be extraordinary. Or might just be brimming with undeveloped talent or have the kind of personality that learns deeply and very quickly...we don't really know who this person is or where s/he is at. We have an assumption of a level when we hear "12 years with little formalized training" and however unlikely, it still could be erroneous. If I may say that Keegan would need to be heard before making an assessment. I agree that seeking someone out is a good idea, but we are professionals here too and if we are giving appraisals like "almost certainly not" and "long shot", I only think that they should be given soundly. Again, I really respect your views and enjoy your ideas, and in no way mean to offend or take an attitude.

Generally, Keegan, I would just like to add that so much depends on you and what kind of time, attention, and energy you are willing to give to your efforts. At 25, especially if you're male, your muscles STILL haven't reached the point where they are highly difficult to train, but it's getting close! And you should if you're really serious, get in gear with developing elasticity in your muscles and technique, so you can continue to grow. Again I second (third? fourth?) the idea that finding an accomplished professional (or several) to give honest feedback is wise at this point....although I'd keep it in perspective if you can. I know of a player who was told that they were going to amount to nothing by prominent people in the orchestra world, and he ended up winning a principal audition of a major opera orchestra on a $600 instrument and held that position for many years while holding a faculty professor position at a prominent university and even started his own professional chamber orchestra in a big 5 city! If you REALLY WANT to play, you'll find a way to do it. School orchestra experiences, community orchestra experiences, anywhere where you are coming into contact with standard orchestra literature can help you on your way.

Some of my own experiences might be an example too (apologies for what I know will sound like I am touting myself) ----I didn't really start practicing seriously until I reached college, but four years prior I was getting into the Civic Orchestra of Chicago....two years after entering college (music school, but not a conservatory) I went to Spoleto, placed in a regional competition, subbed as principal second with the Charleston SC symphony, and was co-concertmaster of Civic and of my university orchestra. Looking back, one thing that I did in college was direct my efforts to music without giving myself a fallback...you know, all the way, no "what if's". I somehow had it in my mind then that making progress hinged on being able to put your whole attention into what you're doing and what you want to do. I had good guidance at the time, very good guidance, guidance that guides me to this day. People encouraged me to develop, nobody said I couldn't do it...I was lucky. Family, always there. Progressing might be different for different people, though. The thing about music is that nobody can hold you to a particular level. There is always room to grow, learn, and improve (thankfully)....likewise without proper maintenance there is the possibility of regression. Even if you are a little older and your muscles are shaped somewhat, even THAT can be changed...you can learn deep relaxation and proper mental and energetic techniques to open yourself to muscle flexibility---it's related to your mind's flexibility which is a develop-able area at any age.... But I do agree with the idea that people who get into major orchestras are people who at some point and for a length of time, devote themselves to music and put it as an (or THE) unshakable #1 priority in their lives. And study with people who play orchestra music at a high level.

Studying with someone who can point out your bad habits accurately and give you ways to play well is invaluable. Someone who can watch you grow, encourage your progress, and catch you if you start to backslide. If you are serious about pursuing music, the one thing you don't want to skimp on is a great teacher. Try practicing for four hours every day WITHOUT FAIL for one full year, while studying weekly with an EXCELLENT teacher. If at first it's hard on your muscles then WORK UP to four hours a day. See what you yourself think after that....you might not even want to play then, but you might be completely inspired and totally motivated and within another couple of years be playing professionally! You NEVER KNOW.

basalin
homely fiddle player
trying to scrape out a simple tune
without breaking his neck

Charles Kavalovsky played principal horn in the Boston Symphony for 25 years after first being a PhD in nuclear physics. It took him about two years to make the switch.

http://www.wgbh.org/article?item_id=1840667

quote:

Originally posted by Keegan1:
I'm not talking about a major recording artist or anything -- just a sectional violinst in a major symphony.

What' ya think?

Just?

Being JUST a violinist in a major symphony is like saying " I don't want to be Presdident or anything, just a senator". There are 538 senators and congressmen, that number isnt far from the number of major symphony fiddle players.

Keep in mind: I know a zillion major orchestra players who could kick the soloist's A$$. They ARE soloists, not just some shmo hacking away on whole notes. Try playing Copland Symphony No 3 and Zarathustra on 4 rehearsals and you will see how good you have to be.

To answer your question: yes, it can be done. I had a friend make the PGA tour at 38, a guy made a pro ball team at 40 after being a high school teacher, old ladies graduate from college, Famous Amos was an old dude who made cookies, yada yada.

What you are attempting is similiar to becoming a heart surgeon, race car driver, Congressman or Rock star. Yes, it happens, but the "just" thingee shows a very unrealistic view of what you are seeking. You will probably have a better chance making the finals of American Idol than getting a major symphony gig.

With all due respect to Keegan, and to the various posters who are attempting to be enouraging:

Is it possible that you are that rarest of exceptions, a violinist so extraordinary that you can pick up the instrument with little professional training and years spent playing only as a hobby, and win a major orchestra job? Sure, anything's possible. But your comment that you "just" want to be a section player in a major orchestra tells me a lot. It's what all of us have heard time and again from amateurs who take a couple of lessons and then think they're ready for the big time because, after all, "it's not like being a soloist or anything." No, it isn't. In many ways, it's harder, since soloists get to make their own artistic decisions and control their own tempos, dynamics, etc. Orchestral players are expected to be able to play anything, at any time, with next to no preparation time, and to do every phrase in whatever style or manner the conductor commands, without complaint. It's nothing like playing in a community orchestra, nothing like a youth orchestra, and not much like a college orchestra, unless you're at one of those rare conservatories that makes a point of scheduling orchestra rehearsals and concerts to mimic what professional ensembles do.

Like I say, we've all known amateurs who insist on trying an audition that's way over their heads because they figure it just can't be that hard, or that much different than what they're used to. There's one in every audition, and it's embarrassing and disastrous for all involved every single time.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm concerned that some of the posts in this thread have been of the "you can do anything you wanna do if you set your mind to it, so go get 'em" variety. Taking an orchestral audition generally costs the auditioner hundreds of dollars in airfare and hotel bills, and requires months of preparation. I'd hate to see you waste your money because someone on a message board said that it wasn't that difficult.

I stand by my original post - none of us are qualified to evaluate you by internet. Call up the nearest major orchestral violinist you can find (or, failing that, the highest-caliber teacher you can locate) and ask to play for them. Tell them flat out that you want an honest appraisal of your chances on the audition circuit. If what you hear gives you hope, go for it. But don't risk your money and your future law practice flying blind into a world you aren't familiar with.

Sam Bergman
violist, Minnesota Orchestra
news editor, ArtsJournal.com
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

I have another way of wording it:

I have played in a zillion pro orchestras of various quality and salary range. I have never seen ANYBODY do what the original post-starter has in mind, not even remotely close.

We are talkin violin here, not horn or anything else, ye olde fiddle. More power to you, I hope you can do it, but keep in mind that you would be that one in a million exception if you succeed. Best of Luck.

Yes, I'll chime in to say that winning a major audition might very well be one of the harder, more arduous, challenging, and demanding things an orchestra player with a billion hours of practicing, training, rehearsals, and coachings will EVER do. If I painted a picture like it was in any way easy or just around the corner, no way Jose....BUT, I believe that reinforcing the fact that it's hard only makes it harder. Someone who has been playing for 20 years and is 25 but hasn't yet gone to music school I still feel stands a better than a million in one chance at an orchestra career, no matter what language they might currently be using to describe their dream. Not right away , I never meant that, just with proper training and guidance, like going to music school and getting some good training, not putting the cart before the horse. I was reading this thread like a progressing conversation, and I was under the impression that what was said earlier about it being a good idea to attend music school if you want to make a career in music was an established understanding. Things I was saying earlier were with that in mind. I'm saying that someone with 20 years of playing and is 25 wanting to develop into an orchestra player certainly can and it is quite possible to do so.

Having the desire is a good start; knowing that the total effort goes beyond that, that is a given. BUT, having the desire is like a HUGE part of playing music! Orchestra music is PHENOMENAL. And if you want to play it, that's a major hurdle already out of the way. You have to sacrifice alot to make it happen, it doesn't come of it's own. You have to WANT to do this, this is what I mean by "want to". And getting the gig is the beginning. You might be able to play pg.1 of Don Juan by yourself, but how about the whole piece with a section and a guest conductor you've never seen before and the regular concertmaster is taking the week off and not your most favorite stand partner with two doubles in two days and then three concerts? And on that same concert is a contemporary piece you've never seen before in time signatures you don't usually play in and then La Mer with Ruslan and Ludmilla overture as an encore? And you're on PROBATION? It's a GREAT RIDE, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but you've got to be ready for it. Winning an audition is one part of the total picture. I believe in possibility though, and believe that being encouraging, especially to the younger and more inexperienced, is completely appropriate. I enjoy painting a picture that makes people think, "oooh, I CAN!" because guess what? What do you think happens when someone starts to HONESTLY THINK they can do something? I don't want to mince words either, and if I was sugar-coating anything, I certainly didn't mean to be misleading or misrepresent the challenges that orchestra players face.

HOWEVER, you're playing MUSIC---your life is not on the line, someone else's life is not on the line, and you're not being called upon to make decisions that will affect millions of people NOR are those same millions of people ever going to be watching you play at any one time. Do you LOVE playing music? I still hold fast to the premise that LOVE will find a WAY....and if you LOVE music, and LOVE playing the violin, then by all means stay with it. I believe, however naive it might sound, that THAT LOVE will help you and help you carry out your dream. By honoring that love with genuine and quality action, hey, I'm no expert but it is my belief that LOVE will guide you and show you things and open your way, as you open to it. TOO MANY PEOPLE in this world don't follow their true dream, and if it is your true dream to play music, you should. 20 out of 25 years is a great start, you're still very young. IF you're serious, FORGET the odds and go for it. Entertaining the odds (entertaining, not acknowledging) is giving way to fear and exacerbating the possibility that you might not make it, because you're saying "What if I don't make it?" and THAT ACTION, that WHAT IFfing is GIVING YOURSELF THE OUT. And right away, your mind is divided and focussing on other things, other possible courses of action to answer "what if you don't make it?" and if you're GIVING YOURSELF THE OUT, chances are you're going to end up taking it unless you catch yourself and give your whole attention to what you're doing (playing music). What I meant in my earlier post in talking about my experiences was that eliminating and sacrificing things that "give you the out" including thought patterns can help you develop the proper focus to bringing your dreams into reality.


Another alternative might be to NOT go seek out an orchestra player now, and instead find the courage yourself to follow your dream, enroll in music school, and get to work. THEN, after awhile, find an orchestra player to play for. Or even coach with an orchestra player WHILE you're in music school....

Between you and me, musicians seem to be a lot happier than lawyers...

Good luck in your decision!

basalin

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:
I have another way of wording it:

I have played in a zillion pro orchestras of various quality and salary range. I have never seen ANYBODY do what the original post-starter has in mind, not even remotely close.

We are talkin violin here, not horn or anything else, ye olde fiddle.

What is that supposed to mean? Horn is easier than the violin? I would think it would be easier to get a job in a major orchestra on violin, considering there are 30+ fiddle players per orchestra versus 5 or 6 horn players.

Why don't we give the right answer on this question? If you are committed to excellence, as well as smarter than everyone else, you don't need to have spent your entire life as a musician to win an audition. I would imagine that an intelligent adult who has already learned to problem-solve and achieve in other areas, and who had played an instrument for their whole life as an avocation could win an audition if they devoted 5-8 years of their life to it.

quote:

Originally posted by maccluer:
What is that supposed to mean? Horn is easier than the violin?

It means:

A. I am a violinist. I am a pro, and the person is asking a volin question.

B. I have seen a 7 year old fiddler play the Mendelssohn Concerto. Have you ever seen a Horn player play the Strauss Concerto at 7?

No, not easier, DIFFERENT. I know pro players who picked up the Bass, clarinet, horn, etc in HIGH school and became successful orchestral musicians. I have never met a violinist who has done that, not one. Zero, zip, zilch. Perhaps they are out there, I just havent met one. I am guessing I have met 5,000 or so violinists.

Muscles, breathing, endurance, body stuff, etc. is the main reason I assume, which is why kiddies dont sing opera or play horn concertos at 7.

All instruments are hard to play well. The violin is an instrument that is generally started at a VERY early age, I personally was 7.

quote:

If you are committed to excellence, as well as smarter than everyone else,

Ummm, there are 6 billion people on the planet.

Yeah, but this guy is 25 and has been playing for 20 years. My math says that he started at age 5. Certainly there are numerous occasions when a serious amateur had succeded in the transition to professional. I think that successful people tend to be successful in whatever they chose to undertake.

quote:

Originally posted by maccluer:
I think that successful people tend to be successful in whatever they chose to undertake.

I suspect that Chevy Chase, Michael Jordan, and about a million musicians-turned-wannabe-conductors might dispute that notion...

quote:

Originally posted by WavingAir:
Never do a "put-down" of musicians who throw themselves into that ring (if that is what you were doing, and I am only guessing from your phraseology) because you should do it too! )

I dont see anything that indicated Sam is putting down anything, he is just stating a fact.

Perhaps symphony musicians should study conducting. I have always wished the opposite of many conductors; learn to play in the band! Some have absolutely no clue what we do.

Absolutely...ever conductor should play in the band. I've done it and it is great to sit there and listen to your fellow musicians...it helps when you're thinking about interpretation and phrasing.