quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:

I dont see anything that indicated Sam is putting down anything, he is just stating a fact.

Perhaps symphony musicians should study conducting. I have always wished the opposite of many conductors; learn to play in the band! Some have absolutely no clue what we do.

I would venture more than "perhaps", and if those conductors have never played in a group, then......???...Yikes!

(additional): OK on the no put down, but I wonder about the underlay of that "wannabe" phrase...?

Allow me to remove the suspense surrounding what I meant by "wannabe." I meant "wannabe," and while I didn't mean it as a put-down exactly, there's no question that the music world is full of musicians masquerading as conductors after taking it up as a hobby, just as Hollywood is full of actors who think they can direct just because they've seen directors work. Some of these musicians actually become good stick-wavers, and a select few even go full-time. (I believe we call these "conductors.") But most are in way over their head, and success as a player is no guarantee of success on the podium. (Remember, I was responding to Maccluer's post saying that successful people are successful regardless of the field.)

My original point was that amateur musicians who think they can jump into the big time with a little preparation and a couple of extra lessons remind me a lot of musicians who seem to regard conducting as a lark, rather than as the toughest job in the orchestra, which it almost always is. I'm pretty sure that isn't an insult to conductors.

Fair enough Sam, and I agree with you 100%.

My nature on the subject would be never to discourage anyone from picking up a baton, no matter how amateurish or hopeless re: career prospects, because they will learn something either about music or life or people. If they never amount to anything then they'll never get a job anyway, so no harm done.

So, my general feeling is that perhaps in the orchestral world there should be a kind of supportive attitude for absolutely anyone who wants to take up the study, and then perhaps more players would try it, and those players would surely bring a new and helpful dimension of musicianship into their groups...???

(In my imagination I am a "wannabe" violist, so if I take it up someday I'll beg for your encouragement!)

quote:

My nature on the subject would be never to discourage anyone from picking up a baton, no matter how amateurish or hopeless re: career prospects, because they will learn something either about music or life or people. If they never amount to anything then they'll never get a job anyway, so no harm done.

Which brings us full circle. It's wonderful to learn about music, life and/or people, but is it wise or responsible to encourage someone to quit their current job, forgo law school and pursue the study of conducting full-time at a university/conservatory because they maybenefit from the side-effects listed without having any actual knowledge of the individual's talent?? Worse yet, when you know their career prospects are hopeless??

I don't think so.

[QUOTE]My nature on the subject would be never to discourage anyone from picking up a baton, no matter how amate

Whoa! Dr. Karen...

Ne'er did I mention a word about quitting jobs etc.

And so if I may bring my original point back into focus (and I was never accusing Sam of putting down conductors) it is this:

It was the "wannabe" phrase that had me going: "Wait a minute, be careful now, please".
Because in that phrase there is perhaps a little too much resistance to the idea of any competent musician taking conducting lessons on a regular basis, even if there is no intention to do this job as a full time profession.

One hour a week is do-able for most. And I'm talking for musicians here, not lawyers or pastry chefs or brain surgeons or any other wonderful profession.

In other words: perhaps no one should criticize the efforts of a "million musicians-turned-wannabe-conductors" in the same way that no one in a school system would disparage any musician partaking in any academic extension course.

What is the harm in learning?

Life is a just a school etc.

In the particular case of orchestra musicians studying conducting on a gentle and regular basis, I guarantee this would bear fruit.

Note I said "orchestra musicians" which denotes a certain level there of musical competency to begin with.

Anyway, I love the French Horn!

quote:

Whoa! Dr. Karen...

Ne'er did I mention a word about quitting jobs etc.

I understand that. (But I love that you felt inspired to "Whoa!" me! )

When I said we've come full circle, I was referring to this thread. If you go back and read the original post I think you'll see where I was coming from in my last response. I always read the threads with the original post in mind.

I agree with your point about gently bearing fruit with conductors...no wait....that didn't come out right.

karen

quote:

Originally posted by CorEnFa: "...gently bearing fruit with conductors...no wait....that didn't come out right."

karen

Waving Air to Secretary (innocently): "Can you please book a flight to Arizona?..."

quote:

Originally posted by WavingAir:

quote:

Originally posted by CorEnFa: "...gently bearing fruit with conductors...no wait....that didn't come out right."

karen

Waving Air to Secretary (innocently): "Can you please book a flight to Arizona?..."

Waving, aren't you female? (Francoise, from France?)

Non, b69

Keegan1, Listen to Sam Bergman. Find yourself the highest-calibre orchestra violinist in a renowned orchestra and play your best for them. I would tell you the same thing, and after starting to play at age 16 with relatively little formal training I now play in an orchestra which is "major" by any standard after getting a respectable gig shortly before turning 19.

BTW, There is no such thing as "just" a violinist. In the greatest orchestras, the last chair second violinist is as accomplished as any of the principals. You'll make a lot of enemies by saying things like that, be careful. We orchestra musicians are a proud lot!

Answering the original question is really like doing a complex diagnosis of an unknown illness over the telephone or via email. Not possible. When someone asks me if they should pursue the career in music (just in general, not even "in an orchestra" or "as a soloist" or "as a music teacher") I respond by saying "yes...only if it's what you want to do more than anything else in the world, are prepared for humiliation, rejection, and a testing of your reserves of patience, compassion, and temerity, and you are prepared to fail". It's tough advice, but I'd give in a second to anyone who asked. I know a lot more unhappy musicians than lawyers, btw, especially since Vioxx went south...

O.K,I HAD to put my two cents in on this one.
Keegan,the principal timpanist of Cleveland,IIRC,has a law degree.
Also,I'm 37 and went back to school at 31 to pursue music as a career.
I would like you to think about this:
If they had listened to the so-called experts who knew better than them...

Louisa May Alcott never would have written "Little Women" because she was told she had no writing ability and was advised to stick to her sowing.

Walt Disney never would have created Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck because when he submitted his first drawing for publication the editor told him he had no talent.(Three Theme parks and a cable channel,among other things,bear Disney's name.Anything named after that editor?)

Thomas Edison never would have invented the light bulb,phonograph or movie camera because his teacher told him he was too stupid to learn.His mother told the teacher that her son had more sense in his little finger than the teacher had in his whole body and took him out of school and taught him herself.(Did I mention he had more patents than any other person?)

F.W.Woolworth never would have founded Woolworth's and Woolco because when he was twenty-one,he was not allowed to wait on customers in the store where he worked.His employers said he did not have sense enough to meet the public.Woolworth's made a hundred million dollars a year and that was during the Depression.

Albert Einstein never would have discovered the Theory of Relativity because one of his high school teachers told him he should quit school "because you'll never amount to anything." (I imagine that teacher later felt stupid.)

Admiral Richard Byrd never would have flown around the North and South Poles because prior to this happening,he was retired from the Navy as unfit for service.
I could go on but I think you get the point.Music is what I want to do and I have no intention of giving up-and neither should you.Go for it!

Press on.
Nothing in the world will take the place of persistence.
Talent will not-nothing is more common than unsuccessful individuals with talent.
Genius will not-unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not-the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

thecap,

i have to jump in and make a correction: you may be thinking of Peter Kogan, principal timpanist with Minnesota. After playing orchestrally out of school, he went away from it for a number of years before getting back into the scene. Paul Yancich is Cleveland's timpanist.

Your points remain very valid!

What we are talking about is perceptive self-evaluation. You have to really know what the level is - and for any job, as you can tell by most of the posts here, that level is extremely high, regardless of instrument - but you have to know specifically what breadth of technique is required. If you aren't sure what the level is, then that is obviously your first step. Part of the value of going to your first auditions can be to realize what kind of playing is of "winning level". The suggestion of finding someone to play for in a professional orchestra is good advice. If you aren't sure what is demanded, then you need to get the honest advice of someone who does. Age and resume are not issues in America. If you are talking Europe, then it's a different story.

timpani1,what I meant was,"Keegan(I was addressing the initial poster whose name is Keegan),the principal timpanist of Cleveland(Paul Yanich),IIRC,has a law degree.
But thank you for the compliments!

Ah, I believe I've nailed it down:

Richard Weiner, principal percussionist in Cleveland, does indeed have a law degree. (Mr. Yancich got his first job immediately after graduating from CIM.)