I happened to know some people in Charlotte Symphony, lots of them are excellent musicians, some of them can be described as dorks that should not be there, including vast majority of the so called "permanent substitutes" that they hire by some mysterious procedure that doesn't involve an audition (official one).

One look at their recent concert program reveals that about %40 of the string section members have "double crosses" next to their names indicating that they are not members of the CSO but are in fact of the permanent substitute sort. THAT may explain their recent streak of no hires for the string section as it alleviates the financial situation a little bit.

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some of them can be described as dorks that should not be there

Does being a dork mean you are not qualified? I thought most orchestra musicians were dorks, and especially the best are often the dorkiest...
Does dork mean something else here?

According to a friend of mine in the the CSO, the Charlotte Symphony master agreement specifies that the harp position is full time. All full time positions in the CSO are specifically named in the contract. For this to change, it would have to be negotiated in the contract.

"Dorks" - meaning not qualified. By what "audition" did the permanent substitutes get into this orchestra I wonder.

I don't think there are any permanent substitutes, there are a pool of subs that do get hired for a lot, but they have no benefits or guarantee of work

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Originally posted by ClefChef:

quote:

Originally posted by vlacarolina:
I don't think there are any permanent substitutes, there are a pool of subs that do get hired for a lot, but they have no benefits or guarantee of work

I don't remember the exact wording on the concert program, but it was something along those lines of "regular extra" or "permanent sub" or similar. Having seen quite a few performances I question some of the choices for those extras. Have they auditioned (as other orchestras require to) and what's the criteria if they did not audition? Buddy system?

ClefChef, you seem to have several topics at once:

1. Lots of midsize cities have orchestras with 50-60 "fulltime" players, then augment it to 80 or so with subs. Ain't nuttin' wrong with that.

2. I'm not aware of any standard policy regarding "subs". Some orchs have strict auditions, some use the "buddy system", some use the orch as a training ground for students of the principals.

3. Some orchs, and some Unions in particular, have geographic rules. For example, some say "sub must live within 100 miles", others might be even stricter to supply the truly "local" players with work. I have no idea what Charlotte does, I'm just throwing this info out to suggest that there might be more to it.

4. Keep in mind that the East Coast (and a few other) cities have major conservatories and schools nearby. The quality of subs will be very high because of that. Charlotte doesn't have that, and geographically it's not near anything else. The closest school might be NC school of the Arts but even that's a haul. String players are a dime a dozen in a place like Boston, but Charlotte just doesn't have the geography to support a never-ending supply of string subs.

I am exactly on the topic - the professionalism (or lack thereof) of the personnel manager at Charlotte Symphony Orchestra.

The reason I'm saying this is because I know musicians that live in Charlotte or nearby and never get to play with CSO, while others seem to be playing there all the time. So my question was (still is):
what is the system in CSO?
Does it involve an audition?
a gift to Personnel Manager (viola player)?
Lessons with conductor's wife? (I hear she's a violinist)
Personal audition with concertmaster or conductor?

The folklore about audition practices, some character traits of the concertmaster, inaccessible personnel manager that does not respond to repeated emails or phone messages, and general atmosphere in the orchestra suggest some problems within the organization. The slow-moving-finger subs in the back of the string section is the most obvious one as it is visible in the concerts. And there seems to be a lot of subs at any given concert.

The pool of available professional freelance players is deep. There's USC in Columbia SC with some excellent players there, Greensboro, Winston Salem. The level of playing in Greenville Symphony (SC) is quite high as well. I know for instance that recently bankrupt Charleston Symphony is hiring almost all of their string players from within 250 mile radius and those musicians do come (current acting assistant principal cello IS from Charleston I believe). I don't see why Charlotte couldn't get some DECENT sub list through audition. It may disturb the local swamp a little, but the music would benefit greatly.

P.S. Charlotte Symphony exists without any major academic music program nearby is a fact, and that does not add to the quality, excitement, enthusiasm to neither the audiences nor the performers. Sort of "hired musicians playing for paying audiences" type of deal. No music students, no music faculty...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ClefChef,

quote:

Originally posted by ClefChef:
And there seems to be a lot of subs at any given concert.

It's easy to blame the personnel manager for all of life's woes, but unless you have some sort of personal knowledge (or vendetta) then I don't think you're being accurate. They usually do as they are told. It's a very difficult job in this case since, as you've pointed out numerous times, they use a lot of subs. PM's aren't making artistic decisions, they are sticking butts in chairs. They tend to like the folks that aren't late and wear the right tie at the right gig.

Musicians have voices. If you want to blame someone for the sub situation, the buck stops with the principals (and ultimately the conductor). Most principals in most orchestras can easily "override" the PM and create their own lists, rankings, suggestions etc. You're blaming the wrong person. Even better, go all the way: the buck stops at the top. If ya don't like the sub situation, the MD's your boy to blame, it's his band.

Maybe you're right, Cygnus, and PM is just doing his/her job. However, the lack of transparency in orchestra's hiring practices is not helpful for the orchestra.
In fact more than one musician has mentioned that subs may want to audition with the MD, bypassing principals. More than one musician also mentioned that playing for concertmaster will put you on no hire list as he dismisses anyone that's not on his level. In other words everybody is trying all kinds of tricks that are not in line with professional playing IMHO. All this creates a very bad atmosphere among local musicians I think.

Have a policy, have an audition for Pete's sake. What's the problem there?

The current acting assistant principal cello is not from Charleston, I am pretty sure he was a finalist at the audition for that job. ClefChef, your speculation at the level of the other string subs I am afraid I find a little dubious, apart from your witnessing someone butcher a violin solo at an outside gig I think it is hard to judge the level of these players from just seeing them in the section. Plenty of players might not look the part but may be terrific players. Do you know who these subs are and what their backgrounds are? I know many highly qualified string players who sub with the Charlotte Symphony.

Norbert may not be FROM Charleston, but he was principal at the Charleston Symphony so that makes him sort of "from Charleston".

I just happen to know several of those subs and honestly they would have slim chances at ANY open audition these days (unless it is Charlotte Civic Orchestra). If players don't look the part chances are they don't. Again, it is difficult to say what sub level is when there is no audition, that's why it is "a little dubious". Some of them ARE terrific players no doubt.

My question remains the same: who selects those subs and what's the criteria? Any idea, vlacarolina?

Norbert is not the acting assistant principal, I think he may have been last season, this season he did have a temporary section position but I think he is going back to Charleston next month, when Charleston Symphony season starts.
I am pretty sure some of those subs have taken regular audition for pen positions within the orchestra, some have had positions in other full time orchestras, some are just local freelance players there on someones recommendation or have some connection such as playing chamber music with key players in the symphony, all pretty standard ways of getting on an orchestras sublist.
"I just happen to know several of those subs and honestly they would have slim chances at ANY open audition these days (unless it is Charlotte Civic Orchestra). If players don't look the part chances are they don't."
As for that, maybe I am not qualified to disagree, but I honestly don't think that is true for many subs there

quote:

Originally posted by vlacarolina:
I am pretty sure some of those subs have taken regular audition for pen positions within the orchestra, some have had positions in other full time orchestras, some are just local freelance players there on someones recommendation or have some connection such as playing chamber music with key players in the symphony, all pretty standard ways of getting on an orchestras sublist.

So no one knows what is the "system" as there is none. You must agree that "pretty sure" is somewhat ambiguous.

(Just curious, would it be possible that you may be one of those subs?)

"You must agree that "pretty sure" is somewhat ambiguous."
I am not a member of the symphony so can only speculate, like you, and yes, I have subbed there so feel I have some idea about the process and level of other subs, do you play with them?