quote:

HOWEVER, they should not hold open or semi-open auditions.

Are you people so jaded that you can't read the facts? These people played screened prelims, semis and finals. Wah Wah Wah. What's your complaint now...that they do a secret rat-a-tat-tat on their drum before they started to let the committee know, "Hey, I'm from Boston"? Sour grapes all around. Did you get a chance to read the insightful comments by Jen Arnold? These are obviously qualified people.

How selfish of some of you to try to contaminate their incredible accomplishment with your whining.

I am happy for Matt and Kyle and don't question their obvious superior playing abilities- I won my position at a young age (24) and similar level of experience, so maybe I was a bit out of line with my earlier comments on lack of experience. I do, however, believe that there is an art to ensemble playing beyond one's individual skills and this is only achieved with time. I am certainly a better ensemble/orchestral player now than I was when I started (25yrs ago!).

One of the deficiencies of the audition process is it's inability to determine whether or not a player has good ensemble skills. It's an unknowable, and that's why someone with a proven track record of ensemble experience combined with a demonstration of excellent playing skills at the audition is often more successful.

In terms of a level playing field, my question is were Kyle and Matt invited to the audition or did they have to make a DVD? (Maybe Matt's brother can answer this for us). Usually major orchestras set parameters for invites- current position held (ICSOM or ROPA orchestra), recent audition results from the orchestra holding the audition, etc.. If a parameter is simply currently or recently having studied with members of said orchestra in order to be invited to the audition, then I think that is disingenuous. If they made a DVD and were invited based on that then all the more power to them.

Really...just stop. These guys went through all the rounds behind a screen. They were invited the way we invite people here in Oregon, a committee went through their resumes. If you study with a name teacher and go to a name school, we likely let you in, period, even with no experience (like playing in the NEC orchestra is no experience?). As for ensemble playing, this is why we have 2 years probation. You don't cut it, you are out. Ask the BSO player who lost the job. I can tell you in one month who sticks and who doesn't in my section. But I also get up on stage and play a "duet" with finalists. That usually tells me all I need to know.

There are no DVDs in Oregon, just resumes. If I am called by a teacher to reconsider our "letter of discouragement" I usually let them into the audition in the end. Sure, BSO has more applicants maybe (though we had 110) but we let as many come as we could fit in. Here's the deal about getting invited...go to a great school or study with a teacher with connections who was a major player somewhere, sometime. If you couldn't get INTO a great school that tells you something. Now, I'll accept the socio-economic argument as a problem, but STILL...where there's a will there's a way. Make an artistic statement with your playing and YOU WILL WIN. Matt did not play a perfect final round I hear...so know why he won? NOT because he knew Tim, because when the greats make an error they STILL do it musically and with great rhythm and style. And then they move on and nail the rest of the licks just to show you. WANNA WIN? Get mentally tough or get out. And whiners never win, that's what I have found because we actually know who writes all these posts in the end. So I just sign my name. Maybe you should too? ND

Really...you can tell by playing a duet whether or not they have command of orchestral playing? That's awesome. You're awesome Neil. I know you are proud that a member of your orchestra got one of the positions.

So if I had a young player like Matt or Kyle and they were a "sick" player but didn't study with the local teachers or go to their school, then an invite is out of the question right. Like I stated earlier, I'm interested in an open, even, clearly defined set of parameters for inviting individuals to auditions just like Oregon. Once again, congratulations to Matt and Kyle, two great players obviously.

Wow...uhh, no crony1. And I am not awesome, just someone who works at the art and craft of music and has for some time, my track record on recordings and other places will have to speak for itself. The only way to tell if someone has a "command" of ensemble playing is to put them in an ensemble. Playing with me in an audition at least tells me if they can follow and feel another person's sense of time and whether it agrees with theirs. Can they hear "across the room"? Know where to place an attack that brings the group together rather than favors a nearby section? That's what gets someone through probation time. Do they hear?

I never said an invite is out of the question for anyone. I believe that all qualified players should be allowed to come to an audition if there is space for them. And less than the obviously super qualified if there is space. You never know who is out there, no matter where they studied or with whom. We believe that here. I cannot account for other orchestras.

I am proud of Matthew and that is all, not that a member of my section got the job. Anyone who comes to an audition and plays their A-- off will likely make the finals. What happens after that is a crap shoot. People have good days and bad days. Matt practiced every day for 3-4 hours for the last 4 months for this gig...I heard him downstairs at the hall. He deserved to be invited to Boston because the word was out that he was a great player already. Same for the other young guns. Many of the principals compare notes at one time or another.

How about this Crony1, why don't you put out there what YOUR criteria are for someone to be invited to an audition. We'll probably have another one here in the fall. Should everyone be invited? Should there be DVD rounds? Should we pay for 5 days of preliminary auditions to hear every single person? If you let me know who your students are, I'll be sure to have them come. Promise.

I spent much of last season working with my colleagues to craft a new audition policy that addresses many of these questions and this is an interesting debate and there are no perfect answers. There are economics involved, especially in percussion auditions that require lots of equipment and staff and crew time.

So I will read your post on this subject with interest. Unless we invite every person who applies this is all a fix, right? And even then, is there any way to satisfy you?

Also, it's the people who pay attention to details that usually get moved forward in these auditions...BTW my name is spelled Niel. I'll look for some serious criteria from you in the near future. I will take it to our percussionists and we will discuss. Then I will get off the site. Make it serious and we'll take it seriously.

(suggestion)

Pre-audition dynamic could be:

1. Wannabe applicants prepare YouTube presentations (C.V. listed below video window).
2. Applicants post `declaration of interest` on a special page on the orchestra`s website.
3. Then everybody just wait.

So, in the case of, say, section violin, this means everyone in the section (not just audition
committee members or personnel folks) will have ample time to peruse various presentations as they wish.

After some time, natural chit-chat amongst all might have the effect of forming a sense of focus
on particular applicants.

The above is in no way a solve-all solution, just a piece of the pie.

If (re: point 2) such webpages were available publicly, then other orchestras could also check out
these applicants. Therefore, the symphonic community could be more on top of who is looking for a position,
and have a more immediate sense of them.

Niel, sorry for the misspelling of your name in the other email. Please don't question my sincerity. Other than my flippant comment about your awesomeness, each point I've made has it's own validity. Once again, congrats to Matt and Kyle. They certainly proved themselves in the three rounds.

Throughout my emails I've tried to discern the parameters for being invited to an audition and how those decisions are made. You have shed light on that process. My concern is why do orchestras ask for resumes in order to get into an audition when all it takes, in some instances, is a phone call from someone saying they have a great player that should be heard? Why not include that option (if you know of any great players, call us) in the AF of M listing?
Again, just interested in an open, clearly defined process like I've talked about in my other "serious" emails.

I think enough has been said...gonna go relax on the golf course. I'm out.

Well in fairness, it depends who calls. It is a lot easier to make a call to get someone in if we 1) know who you are and 2) you have a track record of teaching and or playing that says you know your stuff in the event we don't happen to know who you are. In truth, it is easier to get into auditions for orchestras with budget sizes that are numbers 10-20 than it is for orchestras that are budget sizes 1-10. The single biggest reason for this is that we all know what kind of training it takes to make it into the upper ranks of orchestras. I have not heard of anyone making it into any top ten orchestra in the last 20 years who didn't go to a "name" school or study with a "name" teacher, or a teacher who went to a "name" school and maybe is teaching at a lesser school, who is then KNOWN by the people from the "name" school who can vouch for their pedagogical abilities.

Is it possible that there can be a great player, NOT taught by a name teacher, not having gone to a name school, or having been taught by someone who did, or has a LOT of experience who wins a top 10 orchestra job? Sure, I mean Gary Burton taught himself how to play the vibes. Anything is possible. BUT, we would have to let EVERYONE into our audition to be sure we haven't missed that person and then we get into the economics and time issue. Hearing 100 players may be more fair but it is not what we want to do. So this is not about extreme ideal fairness in the end I suppose. It is about a series of compromises between fairness, equity, efficiency, and costs that will eventually get us the ONE person we need. We only need one. or two.

In my orchestra we bust our backs over fairness. I repeat, if there is some system that works crony1 that you would like to suggest, please put it out there. What is the ideal system in your view? And is it fair to encourage people to come and spend a lot of money and time when we know it is highly unlikely that they will move forward? What is our obligation to be truthful to candidates about their chances from our point of view?

In the end, we have a system where if after all the discouragement letters you still want to come here, and you let us know that, our PM will put you on a wait list if you show and if a slot opens up, you can play. That's our solution. But then you have to believe that if you get out from behind the screen, and we take it down for the finals, we won't be biased against you for some other reason. So you are all welcome to apply here.

And now I am going to go practice. City Noir is coming by Adams. Much heavy lifting to do. ND

I like MrAtoz's suggestion, but I have one major concern: audio/video quality. We can say it doesn't matter, but in fact it does matter a great deal. Many orchestras say essentially that when they require a CD/DVD resume.

What I would propose is this:

Many large colleges have internet2 portals on their campuses. For those of you who don't know about internet2, it is a super-high bandwidth network set up to be essentially what the original internet was back in its infancy: a scientific research sharing pipeline. It enables full duplex video conferencing in hi-def with extremely high audio quality in real time.

Here in Portland there is an internet2 portal at Portland State University, which is just blocks from our hall. It would be an interesting experiment to do a pre-live audition screening for all of those who wish to take part using this technology. Looking at the list of participating institutions, it would seem that there would be available portals nearby most likely participants in North America. Undoubtedly there would be some costs do defray, but charging an audition/application fee to defray those costs might be feasible (and certainly cheaper than plane fare and lodging expenses).

I know that the New World Symphony has been using the network for live masterclasses at a distance, so it would seem that it would be a very good use for this network in the realm of auditions.

We here in Oregon pride ourselves on being different, and having an independent mindset, I would think that this is something that many of us in the orchestra would be in favor of trying. What do you think, Niel?

Charles Noble
Assistant principal viola
Oregon Symphony

Warning - A bit of a rant:

This conversation is interesting however two points I'd like to make as the discussion seems to be turning towards "fair" ways to run auditions.

Orchestras can run their auditions however they see fit as long as it's in accordance with their CBA's and AFM rules (as far as I'm aware). With that in mind:

1) The teachers in Boston are some of the best around. I know. I studied with one. Although, I'm the hack who fell through the cracks ;-). Not only are they phenomenal players, they are effective teachers who get results and serve as life-long mentors. It's no wonder their students do well at auditions. Not just BSO. In recent years, their students seem to always be close in auditions if not winning them. (I'd be happy to compile a list of recent auditions and their results with some help here.)

2) We in the classical music world are becoming too obsessed with rules. We seem to have rules that are enforced only for the sake of enforcing them. In my eyes, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. We're trying to be too fair and it's getting to a breaking point. I'm not saying this is the case in the recent BSO audition but orchestras shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops. If the Springfield Symphony Orchestra plays a certain way and their musicians teach that certain way at Springfield Conservatory, let them hire their own students - or whomever they see fit to fill the position.

Rant over.... for now.

For the record, Matt was invited to the BSO audition without needing to make a DVD, but I can't speak for Kyle (though I don't think he made a DVD either). Their resumes were more than enough to speak for themselves. Both have been in finals in previous auditions and both have more than sufficient orchestral experience. Their resumes also should read "great hands, hard workers, terrific young talented musicians who play well with others." Bravo Matt and Kyle - you earned it!

Update: Kyle did in fact make a DVD for BSO. All the more impressive.

For what it's worth, I recently won BSO viola and didn't study with anyone in Boston. Same was true when I won Philly in 2008 (I didn't study at Curtis). Some people roll their eyes whenever Philly hires a kid from Curtis. It might just be that these are top schools, top orchestras have some of the best musicians, these musicians naturally teach at their cities' respective schools and teach their way of playing, so they listen for that kind of sound in an audition. Makes sense to me.

Btw, the 83% thing is kind of irrelevant when you're talking about such a small sample size.

If you study with members of an orchestra, you are definitely being well trained in the playing the style of that orchestra. It is no surprise that many Boston students did well in this audition. In fact, Boston students do well in every percussion audition, being they are very talented and have the work ethic needed to win a job. Kyle and Matt are two of the most talented percussionists and musicians I have heard. Anyone who disputes the fairness of them winning this audition a)has never heard them b)is bitter that they aren't as good c) needs a reality check d) needs to stop bitching and spend some more time in the practice room.

First, I don't think anyone here is trying to make a case that Matt and Kyle are not deserving of their new positions. From what I've heard, it's likely that had this audition been for a different orchestra, with an entirely different committee, they may still have won the positions.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous to even consider that an orchestra would hire anyone other than the people they think are best for the job.

People who have connections to an orchestra do enjoy advantages at that orchestra's auditions. Beyond familiarity with an orchestra's particular style, those may include familiarity with the hall and audition instruments and perhaps insight into which obscure excerpts are likely to appear on a list made by their teachers.

What's strange is not that so many Boston students did well; they do well in other auditions, too. What's strange is that almost no musicians from other schools with similar success records survived the preliminary round.

While I don't think it's valid to tell the BSO that they can't hire the people that sound most like them, I do think that it's fair to ask if it's worth taking a BSO percussion audition if you don't have strong ties to the committee members.

I've been at auditions where a certain school of playing is uniformly rejected. It's frustrating to realize that, short of reinventing yourself, you'd already lost the audition before you booked your flight, hotel, time off work, etc.

I wish there were a means for those few orchestras who are looking for uniformity in a section above all else to inform candidates that this was the case.

I'm not yet in favor of Cygnus' suggestion that orchestras simply hire without auditions; I think this would encourage too many groups who would otherwise hold "open" auditions to be lazy in order to save time and money.

I never had a chance to congratulate these two homegrown musicians and the rest of the finalists for representing Boston so well against the rest of the world. Great for Boston to have the best of the best!