Given the recent thread regarding the upcoming Oregon audition, I thought it interesting that there hasn't been any discussion of the fact that the upcoming Pittsburgh timpani audition is (according to the rep list on their website) not going to allow people to bring their own drums. They do say that both American and German will be provided (though no specifics yet regarding make of drums.

Any thoughts?

Assuming that the PSO provides two quality sets of drums, it won't matter to the outcome. If you can play the timpani at the level expected by an orchestra like Pittsburgh, that will be evident whether on personal drums or house drums. I'd be willing to bet that the outcomes of both DSO and NSO auditions as of late would have been the same even had the use of house drums been exclusively required.

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Originally posted by TXTIMP:
Assuming that the PSO provides two quality sets of drums, it won't matter to the outcome. If you can play the timpani at the level expected by an orchestra like Pittsburgh, that will be evident whether on personal drums or house drums. I'd be willing to bet that the outcomes of both DSO and NSO auditions as of late would have been the same even had the use of house drums been exclusively required.

Personally, I agree, but I know that there are quite a few who disagree (again, based on the Oregon thread).

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Originally posted by rdmtimp:

quote:

Originally posted by TXTIMP:
Assuming that the PSO provides two quality sets of drums, it won't matter to the outcome. If you can play the timpani at the level expected by an orchestra like Pittsburgh, that will be evident whether on personal drums or house drums. I'd be willing to bet that the outcomes of both DSO and NSO auditions as of late would have been the same even had the use of house drums been exclusively required.

Personally, I agree, but I know that there are quite a few who disagree (again, based on the Oregon thread).

Here is a quote from Jauvon Gilliam, recent National Symphony timpani audition winner, as stated in the Washington Post:

If you want to win a job of this caliber, Gilliam says, this is what you have to do. Seven hours a day of practicing in the months leading up to the audition. No social life, no free time. And, "You really have to bring your own instruments," he says. "It's an expense, and it's a pain, but if you want to win, you really have to."

Now, what say ye?

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Originally posted by bulldog:

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Originally posted by rdmtimp:

quote:

Originally posted by TXTIMP:
Assuming that the PSO provides two quality sets of drums, it won't matter to the outcome. If you can play the timpani at the level expected by an orchestra like Pittsburgh, that will be evident whether on personal drums or house drums. I'd be willing to bet that the outcomes of both DSO and NSO auditions as of late would have been the same even had the use of house drums been exclusively required.

Personally, I agree, but I know that there are quite a few who disagree (again, based on the Oregon thread).

Here is a quote from Jauvon Gilliam, recent National Symphony timpani audition winner, as stated in the Washington Post:

If you want to win a job of this caliber, Gilliam says, this is what you have to do. Seven hours a day of practicing in the months leading up to the audition. No social life, no free time. And, "You really have to bring your own instruments," he says. "It's an expense, and it's a pain, but if you want to win, you really have to."

Now, what say ye?

That's his opinion, and he's certainly entitled to it. It hasn't always been that way, however.

Jauvon's statement makes sense if the auditioning orchestra has permitted candidates to bring their own timpani - as the NSO did. In that case, if you have drums and they're of a professional quality, you should definately take the time and pay the $$ to take them. My point is that if candidates are not permitted to bring drums - assuming quality instruments are provided - the best candidate for that particular job will still be selected - in fact, some might argue that it becomes even MORE apparent given the evening of factors involving equipment.

The bottom line here is that the Oregon Symphony has dug themselves in a hole to which they have no credibility:

1) Before researching how to hold a timpani audition, they hastily announced it, while flopping back and forth on what how they were going to hold THEIR audition.

2) They haven't sent out invitations yet. (This audition is happening in less than one month)

3) They are providing German players with a vastly superior set of timpani (Walter Lights) to the american (Hinger Touch tone).

Pittsburgh will have two identical sets of Clevelanders. One American, One German. While these drums may not be every timpanists first preference, most or all would agree they are sufficient instruments, at the very least. That is fair.

Additionally, Pittsburgh has already posted their list, provided the exact details of the audition, and their audition 3 months away! Oregon could sure learn a few things.

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Originally posted by timp123:


3) They are providing German players with a vastly superior set of timpani (Walter Lights) to the american (Hinger Touch tone).

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but I've played Hinger drums for many years, and in my opinion (given proper maintainance) they can sound as good as anything else. It really depends on your concept of sound more than anything. To call them inferior to the Lights (which your comment above seems to imply) is, I think rather rash.

Bass auditions do not provide "house" basses as far as I know for their auditions. A professional quality bass can be as much if not much more than a set of timpani (even double). Transportation costs for bringing a bass are also very very high. I know many friends that have had their instruments damaged by the airlines, and wind up not even being able to play the audition.
Tuba players I think as well have high transportation costs. Especially if they need to bring two tubas to the audition.

As far as I can remember, these orchestras all selected their current timpanist when they (the timpanist) were using their own equipment: (I am sure there are jobs I am missing or I am not remembering properly, this is off the top of my head)

Dallas Symphony
National Symphony (both recent times, and in the last audition the three final finalists all had their own drums)
LA Philharmonic (again the 3 final finalists all had their own drums)
Cincinnati Symphony
NY Philharmonic (again the 3 final finalists all played on their own drums)
Boston Symphony (I think all the semi finalists there had their own)
San Francisco symphony (again the same)
Milwaukee Symphony (not sure)
Atlanta Symphony
There have been some other recent jobs Charlotte, Grand Rapids, San Diego, I don't know the details here. I think at least one of them.

My point here is clearly Jauvon is not the only person to hold this opinion.

Getting into which instrument is better is just silly. Everybody has their own opinion.

Now saying what I just did, orchestras have the right to decide how they want to run their audition. There are many logistical and financial reasons why an orchestra might NOT allow players to bring their own drums. In fact they might not even provide German system drums. I won my first job playing on American system drums. (and I play German system) Try going to Germany, taking an audition (if you are lucky) and finding an orchestra that is willing to provide a American set of drums! If they happened to find you something, they would be lesser quality for sure. Never minding the fact that they would not be willing to hire you if you did not play German system. Just like a German orchestra would not consider clarinet player that did not play German system Clarinet.

Recently I saw an add for an Euro orchestra that would provide both systems for the audition but also said the winner would be required to play American system. (people do not bring drums to auditions in Europe as far as I know)

In this age orchestras a really suffering. There is only so much expense they can endure to have an audition. I guess we should all just be happy that these opportunities are there to begin with. (what few there are)

At the same time people should not begrudge people that have taken the time, effort and money to bring drums to an audition. It's a huge pain, a real commitment and at a very high cost.

Just my two cents.

I'm not "begrudging" anyone who chooses to bring their own drums (if I gave that impression, I apologize). I personally would never have been able to do so when I was auditioning, but if someone wants to do it, more power to them.

I admit "Begrudging" was a poor choice of words. And was not pointed at anybody directly on this Forum.

I do think that there has been a lot of emotional comments made in reference to the OSO audition, and as "afropauken" suggested as well I think people should just chill out a little. And let things be it's not our job to tell orchestras how to run their auditions.

My 2c here. I had the opportunity to hear two timpanists from major orchestras play head to head then switch on two very different sets of timpani, perhaps as different as can be. Specifically, Lights with white Remo heads vs early Adams with very fat lips, and thick calf heads. They each played about 20 minutes on each set of drums, then switched. For the first 10-15 minutes one was very aware of how different the drums were. By the end of the 20 minutes, the players sounded very much like themselves again, and the drums became a very small factor. The players took control.

It was a revelation, and it supports the view of some that "if you can play, you can play on anything." However, it took time for these two major players to find their "voice" on the new drums. Auditions are very short, and first impressions are extremely important. In my experience, it took at least 10 minutes for the adjustments to really settle in. Can we spare 10 minutes of our prelim for this process? For those ten minutes of acclimatizing, the player is demonstrating a warped version of themselves.

Philosophically, I feel that auditions should focus first on allowing players to represent themselves as accurately as possible. Drums differ greatly, and playing approaches develop to fit the drums and hall of each player. The ultimate in accurate representation of how one plays can only be had when one is playing the drums one has practiced on. In Germany, they're lucky, because there is near total uniformity in the equipment used nation wide. In the USA, this is not the case. I still believe that the auditions which best evaluate a player on that player's own terms are those which permit applicants to bring their own timpani.

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Originally posted by writep:
I still believe that the auditions which best evaluate a player on that player's own terms are those which permit applicants to bring their own timpani.

While all of this makes sense and, I agree with you, those who play on their own instruments will certainly be able to "represent themselves as accurately as possible [to the audition committee]," this whole idea requires the assumption that anyone and everyone who wishes to take a timpani audition has their own set of drums and has the wherewithal to move them to wherever the audition circuit may take them. And, not only that, but that every single set of drums is of comparable quality (two players of equal skill-set are certainly going to sound different on a set of low quality timpani vs. a set of high quality timpani).

As this is obviously not the case, requiring everyone who auditions to play on a set of "house drums" is really the only way to level the playing field and, in my opinion, evaluate the true skill set of a player. As you said, "if you can play, you can play on anything." So, assuming that the player who is to eventually win the job can play, why would he not then be able to play on a set of unfamiliar drums?

Of course, some time needs to be given to anyone on a set of unfamiliar drums or in an unfamiliar hall to evaluate the equipment and adapt to your surroundings; that should really go without saying. But take this for instance:

Two different players. Player A comes into the audition with only his stick case and a tuning fork (or maybe he has perfect pitch...whatever). He is playing on a set of foreign instruments in an unfamiliar hall. He begins the audition with a good sound. By the end of the round, he has a noticeably better sound.

Player B, on the other hand, comes into the audition with a set of $35K timpani, tuned to his liking, gauges set to his liking, etc. His sound is great to begin with and remains consistent through the entire round.

Now, in my opinion, though Player B may be the logical choice to advance to the next round (he sounded consistently great), it would seem to me that he is only going through the same motions he has been going through for the weeks or months leading up to the audition which, granted, is a skill in and of itself. Player A, however, shows an entirely different set of skills to the committee: the ability to listen, the ability to adapt to new and unfamiliar instruments and surroundings, etc. Assuming Player A didn't completely botch the actual performance part of the audition, would it not seem that Player A is, in fact, more skilled?

It is only a level playing field in the sense that everyone is playing that day on identical drums. However, it is not a level playing field in that some people will have been practicing on identical drums, and some will not. The logic breaks down there.

Yes, not every player invests in their own timpani, but I think it's not unreasonable that a timpanist should own timpani. A bassist without a bass is a rare thing, and I believe a timpanist without timpani can reasonably be expected to be rare also. Most musical instruments of professional quality are expensive. I'm not sure why the expectations for timpanists have been so different for so long.

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Now, in my opinion, though Player B may be the logical choice to advance to the next round (he sounded consistently great), it would seem to me that he is only going through the same motions he has been going through for the weeks or months leading up to the audition which, granted, is a skill in and of itself. Player A, however, shows an entirely different set of skills to the committee: the ability to listen, the ability to adapt to new and unfamiliar instruments and surroundings, etc. Assuming Player A didn't completely botch the actual performance part of the audition, would it not seem that Player A is, in fact, more skilled?

msmperc:

What you just described in player B is exactly what we strive to do: be able to express the very best of ourselves the first time in an audition setting. That's what it's all about - being able to do EXACTLY what you want and convey EXACTLY what you want THE FIRST TIME. You don't get many second chances in a 6-minute audition (as writep alluded to). And, in my opinion, the only way to do that is to be able to play the excerpt the same way on a very high consistent level. Adapting to a new instrument is not a skill needed once you have a job (if you own your own instruments) - sounding your best consistently is. With all that being said, I am a firm believer in the concept of "if you can play, you can play on anything." You just may not sound exactly like you want, and sometimes, that small lack of confidence can come across to a committee.

Re: Pittsburgh - this is the most ideal situation if an orchestra chooses to not allow personal timpani - the German and American drums are as identical as can be, so they playing field is as 'level' as it can possibly be. Most other orchestras will not have this luxury. So Pittsburgh's decision, while it may be considered controversial, seems to be very common-sense based. I won my first job on the orchestra supplied timpani (they had two identical sets, just like Pittsburgh) and I brought my own to the second job I was offered. So it can work both ways. I think there is just a little extra level of comfortability when I'm behind drums that I'm used to (personal or in some cases, school-suppled sets). That's one less thing I have to worry about, and when striving for that 6 minutes of perfection, that can mean all the difference between moving on to the next round or not.

I am not familiar with how it works in the percussion/string worlds, but I have taken a few auditions for bass trombone where contrabass trombone has been asked for. Yes, I did haul the contra that I was familiar with to these auditions (even one overseas), but the orchestras did offer to allow us use of their contra, just in case.

That said, I would personally never play on an unfamiliar instrument at an audition. Just sayin'

I'm enjoying this dialog a lot, and a lot of good points are being made. It would be wonderful if a set of best practices could be agreed to and implemented consistently. I think that's pretty unlikely, but it is something to aspire to, in this declining industry of ours.

To the point of whether adaptation is an on-the-job skill, I'd argue that it is. Once you're hired as the best fit for an orchestra, there's often a lot of room for improvement. Tim Adams in Pittsburgh worked very hard to fit better once he got the job, and I witnessed a big transformation, and a very positive one. But he had years to do that, and everyone in Pittsburgh benefited.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, American style auditions are the worst system for picking a new member for your orchestra, apart from all the other systems. I don't think any country has it totally right. Trial systems like in England are very thorough but the small numbers of invitees make auditions very exclusive, and trials keep peoples' careers in limbo for years. Don't know much about other systems, but they all seem to have advantages and drawbacks.

It's a tough business, and even the best players need a little good luck along the way. Here's hoping we all get ours.

the finals for this job were today, correct?
any news on the results?

I think you're jumping the gun there. The timpani audition is not until middle of July.

Ooo! The conspiracy buffs will love this. Finals before the regular audition!!! : )